It is part and parcel with the place that we normally call Hell. The common view today is that Gehenna was the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Some scholars claim Gehenna later became a " garbage dump ," where refuse was subsequently burned. The quotation begins in verse 22. Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley also became the perpetual burning-garbage dump and city sewer. He quotes: Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. I can use the common meaning of words in scripture. Councils made positive definition of faith (e.g. Hades, the Gray Waste of NE Gehenna, the Bleak Eternity of NE, LE The Nine Hells (of Baator) LE Acheron, the Infinite Battlefield of LN, LE Mechanus, the Clockwork Nirvana of LN Arcadia, the. Who in their right mind would want to cross over? Jesus actually talked of kolasis aionian temporary correction/discipline. The KJV translates Strong's G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x). "Are you referring to Origen? Are you serious? And that's probably what Jerome is after, distinguishing between this end-less but not time-less eternity and the God's eternity without such constraints, wihtout beginning or end. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. Gehenna -- the Valley of Hinnom -- was indeed a valley outside Jerusalem. Gehenna as a Garbage Dump? The Valley of Hinnom, named Gehenna in Greek, lies just outside the city of Jerusalem. Thanks for posting. And of course, the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the trash. You however are reading things into the words "aion" and "aionian". ), "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.". 60. Ive always thought that this was an established fact. "With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimchi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse . If it is Isaiah, then you cannot take this prophet to invalidate what Christ himself taught. >>And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. When the food source dries up, these moths have nowhere to lay their eggs! Its a blank slate until this commentary pops up. En contraire. As for giving the 'damned' (an English word that has changed in meaning since being put in English bibles) their 'just desserts', in Jesus' day there were two common words for what we think of as "punishment". I haven't memorised all the conciliar canons and anathemata but I think neither have you. The objection that "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are used in parallel in Matthew 25:46, and therefore aionian must means eternal is based on a false presumption that the "aionian life" which is spoken of would have to come to an end at the same time that the "aionian" punishment does. Oh, and neither Gregory played any part at "Nicea", Nazianzen played a short role at Constantinople in 381. Which brings us back to our starting point: it is eternal for good and bad or age-enduring for both, not this for one and that for another. He claims they are already undergoing it. When they fought, their teeth would make a gnashing sound. During the reign of King Josiah (640-609 B.C. Seems a little disproportionate to me. It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will. [Are you serious? Still, because it seems like a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as "hell," commentators and preachers have accepted it. I believe you need to be alive to feel the effects of punishment. He must be alive. http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2012/featured-article/tracing-the-road-to-gehenna/, Universalism and The Reality of Eternal Punishment: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7686626,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. Maybe you guys think you are as smart as our all knowing all seeing creator. You brought up a very good point. must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. Your idea about "universal salvation" among church fathers is wrongheaded. I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. My time, unfortunately, is limited too. The "ravine of hinnom" (Gehenna) was the city garbage dump in Jerusalem where the garbage was burned. (the only other times 'dogs' 'tables' and 'crumbs of bread' are mentioned is in the context of a gentile asking Jesus for help. Mk. Does that make the Bible false? His judgments result in righteousness, and the end of the Lord is mercy. (the Romans emphasized justice and were very PROUD of their legal system) I had heard sermons for 40 years, had read the bible cover to cover several times, went to bible studies, listened to countless teaching tapes, and in all that time no one, myself included, noticed any contradiction between Jude 1:7 and Ezekiel 16:55. Gehenna - The Prophetic Garbage Dump. Instead we have bibles that translate 'aion' and 'aionion' in several different ways. At least there is no evidence of any other fires having been kept up in the valley; as has sometimes been supposed(Biblical Researches, vol. Sodom and Gommorah were famous cities, and distinct in their time. "Gehenna (Gei Hinnom) became the common lay-stall garbage dump of the city, . Rob Bell takes the view in Love Wins that in Jesus' day Gehenna was the "city dump": "There was a fire there, burning constantly to consume the trash." It is a metaphor for the terrible consequences of rejecting "the good and true and beautiful life that God has for us". At least until a council comes along decades later and says that anyone not confessing a belief in an "eternal hell" is not a Christian? This passage appears to me about the situation immediately after God's victory, so it is surely not placed during a time when the New Jerusalem has already been established for a long time. What has that got to do with it. The soul that sinneth it shall DIE, not be given eternal life to burn forever and ever and ever. Should a Complementarian Speak with Lady Preachers? And Christ spoke (e.g. Two different thoughts on the Matthew verse. So "time" as we know it is not eternal. The repeated tradition that the valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump with fires that never ceased burning is in question. Arius was, Nestorius was, Eutyches was. In Luke 16:26 Abraham explains why he can't send Lazarus to the rich man with a few drops of water. As with the legend about the rope around the high priests ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. Also, to pin this on one word is a common folly. In Jesus' day, it was once again the city's garbage dump, where a fire was always burning to consume anything thrown on the pile ( Mark 9:43-48 ). Blot them out of existence? It is amazing how putting on the legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts can blind people to verses that out to stop them in their tracks and make them wonder "What is going on here?". But note that Sodom has not returned to its former state, so I doubt your literalist reading is correct. (66:5) If these bodies in Gehenna are meant to typify being in "hell" why would anyone want to go look at them? It says it is "not quenched". Though only for a while, but of course his being rejected is not related to any universalist teaching (if he held such, which is not undisputed), which were not the issue in 381. As for Isaiah 66:24, it cannot be referring to eternity, as v.23 which is in the same context states that "from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another all flesh shall to worship before Me, says the Lord." There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. If 'aeturnum' always means 'eternal' then Jerome put his foot in his mouth when he wrote this. The websites I had read did not mention all of this, it seems that they were trying to say that it wasn't his teaching on the final salvation of all men that got him in trouble, it was all the stuff that Origen tacked on to that. Their meaning cannot be derived from the "object" (which means you assumption that salvation can be eternal but punishment cannot) but from the context and the context in the passage referred above is a parallel structure. There are plenty of parallel verses that teach the salvation of all that must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. It is one of a number of alignment-based Outer Planes that form part of the standard Dungeons & Dragons ( D&D ) cosmology, used in the Planescape , Greyhawk , and some editions of . What church are you talking about? The explanation for the fire of Gehenna lies not in a burning trash dump, but in the burning of sacrificed children. Romans 5 speaks of "condemnation to all men" but of "the many will be made righteous" not "all will made righteous". If it was not condemned, it was because it wasn't widespread and there were more pressing issues. Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. There are a lot of things we need to be saved from at this point, but there will come a point when there will be nothing we need to be saved from. If they contradict e.o., they contradict e.o. 'Valley of the son of Hinnom' [1]) is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest. [I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that.]. Are you referring to Origen? I am disturbed by the anger and name-calling of the resident I am sure he will give the usual excuses. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning "valley of Hinnom"), Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. But of course, some know-it-all flippig through pages will know it better! And, Christ's wonderful promise into banality? [Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation.". Does no one know about the millennium, a period of teaching, after which satan is loosed for a season to test those that followed him in the first earth age. Still, a city the size of Jerusalem needed a dump. Cog of Blood. Another portion of the ravine became a cesspool receiving the . What does a 2000-year-old garbage dump have to do with us, in modern America? It means that there is no coming back from this destruction. Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. It is translated "hell" every time. Gehenna was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem. Jerome is one, Christ may be another. Gray land and gray sky throughout, with no sun . Todd Bolen, from his bibleplaces blog, rounds up some scholarly sources. The "kingdom" of the Son will one day be turned over to the Father, and one of the epistles describes Jesus ruling it UNTIL all His enemies are put under His feet, so the parables about the kingdom and the wedding feast do not have to be describing the final state of "the Kingdom". Gehenna became a place where corpses of criminals, dead animals, and all manners of refuse were thrown to be destroyed. In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council. "The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward.". Specifically, Bailey states: You simply over-reading certain passages. As for Mark 9:44, if you look at Isaiah 66:24 you will see it is bodies that are being eaten by 'worms' and fire. "You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations, says the Lord. Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. In order to do that, the person must be either present or at least given the opportunity. One question to ask about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment? Is that decree retroactive? 1. garbage dump - a piece of land where waste materials are dumped. I don't believe that and I don't believe the last commenter does either. It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and of jthe daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. The fire never went out. But "the flesh" has nothing to dod with worms and fire. Click the card to flip . Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening ( Isaiah 30:33 ). If ALL will be made alive than any passage referring to future punishment MUST be viewed in light of that fact. From the reign of Josiah onward, it was used as a garbage dump where the fires burned the refuse continuously. Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump, the age being not 2011 but just AD 70. "After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now.". Add to that the teaching of the church since the earliest days. If it was consistently translated as 'eternal' people would see how ridiculous that idea is. What the text clearly says is that Sodom serves as an example linked to those suffering in eternal fire. Put simply, there is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a perpetually burning garbage dump. (v.23). The "captivity". The move is part of its restructuring following the acquisition of Neovia in 2019 for US$1.81bn. Gehenna, garbage dump or a place of eternal punishment?/ Gordon Franz., Gordon Franz. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a . One of the immediate problems of any hermeneutics about Gehenna is the religious . 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. If not there, where? If this is supposed to be a literal story about the suffering of an eternal "hell", there would be no need to explain the gulf as being necessary to prevent people from going from Abraham's bosom to the other side where there is torment. Yes, wonderful promise. "The God of the Eons" is a statement of fact, not of limitation. Jesus actually never talked about eternal torment. Gehenna was not a dump outside Jerusalem. The fire never went out. In Mark 9 is Jesus taking a literal prophecy in Isaiah and using it as a parable of something "eternal"? We should rather shun them than let them damage our salvation. It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will.]. One can have a temporal stay with the eternal God. It is never used by Jesus, and is only found in three places in the new testament, Acts 22:5 and 26:11 where Paul is talking about his 'punishment' of Christians before his conversion, and in Hebrews 10:29 where the context again is between those who adhere to the old covenant in opposition to the new, only this time the tables are turned. In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. Romans 11: "mercy to all" doesn't mean all accept it. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures. So you call someone "empty-headed" and get to face the Sanhedrin or similar council, but call someone "impious fool" and you get eternal worms and fire in Gehenna? OR look at a verse like this and at least rethink the idea that worms die and fires are quenched . Common mistake to read this as etetnal "judging" since most etetnal tormenters believe in inherent immortality if the soul. http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2012/featured-article/tracing-the-road-to-gehenna/ An article looking at Gehenna in the OT and why Jesus may have chosen to use this word. This article is more additional proof against the doctrine of eternal torment. I find it interesting that people use the ideas they have been taught about 'hell' being eternal and transfer that to a symbolic statement that Jesus made about worms and fire. When death is destroyed the only thing left is life. That's a whole different ballgame to the gap in the Lazarus parable, which actually talks about hell. That did not happen. From "The Fires of Gehenna: View of Scholars" by Todd Bolen, "The first is Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. For this reason, it became the city dump. That little valley is a likely spot. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. And Jude used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as an example of something that would take place in the future. The rest of the chapter goes on to reassure Israel that they will not all be killed in this judgment. There are quite a few verses in the gospel expressing the same idea in different words, e.g. As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. Thats the earliest reference we have to it- a Rabbi writing in the middle ages from Europe, not Israel, some 1100 years after Jesus was born. See Joachim Jeremias Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus, p. 44. The punishment is given with the goal of improving the one punished. It might have been just as well to not press it. If all men could be saved, it would be great, but we are long past this (let alone all creatures). Eternal life doesn't mean that there is no time just as it doesn't mean there is no space. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Well before the time of Jesus, the valley was also used as a refuse heap. (Actually it says "from one new moon to IT'S next", meaning the same new moon one year later)Time is clearly still in view in this context. As a rubbish dump, Gehenna was a place where fire burned constantly and where worms feasted on the garbage, and these images were transferred to the never-ending punishment of the rebellious. Jesus used this term. You can also spare us quasi-racist ideas like >>legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts<<, Jude 1:7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. Again, the torment is the separation. This was a place where the fires were kept burning all the timenight and day. You are also disrespectful towards the damned it is one thing, as God does, to give them their just deserts, but quite another to simply blot them out from existence and pretend everything's fine. All the while, under the surface, the fire still burned, devouring the putrid garbage days and weeks past. A shorter one, posted at Grace to You: Is Hell Really Endless? The rest of the world will not "suffers unimaginable torment for eternity" the world will be with God, whose judgement is just, even in regard to the damned. "You talk of the teaching of the "church" from the earliest days. "Saint" doesn't mean infallible, you know! This combination of abominable fires and divine judgment led to the association of the valley with a place of perpetual judgment (see Isa. Why would anyone, especially people who are redeemed and survive the coming of the Lord to judge all flesh (v.16) want to go out to look at corpses full of worms and burning? 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