Yes, the reed valve is like the PCV on a automoblie engine. Make sure the gasket you ordered is the 24 041 67-s. Oil Leaks. Would tapping the hole and putting a reed in be helpful? Blew a pto side crankshaft seal. Amsterdam, North Holland, Netherlands. Mowersandyardtools.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. You generally can feel that sweet spot, if not the engine will rotate when air is applied, so retry.Once you have it at TDC with air on, listen by the oil filler, by the intake/carb and by the muffler. What Causes Oil To Push Out Of The Breather? The video you are showing has nothing to do with the carburetor. I am going to show that in a separate video https://youtu.be/c-ZSnesa-to . *You can remove the valve covers (one at a time) and run the engine at idle speed while you watch for puffs of compression leaking into the pushrod gallery.Look at the picture below and find the red arrows I have added. You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Kohler V-Twin Breather Puking Oil Everywhere DGHD 171K subscribers Subscribe Share 178K views 2 years ago How to fix an oil leak on a Kohler V-Twin engine in this Walker GHS Mower. 23 hp kohler engine on xmark mower. If not start there. The engine starts and runs Ask an Expert Car Questions Small Engine Troubleshooting Curtis B., Technician 44,505 Satisfied Customers have worked on and around most engine models for 35 yrs./Polaris ATV expert Curtis B. is online now This leads to blown seals and gaskets, causing oil leaks. Pull the spark plugs and inspect each side for oily deposits, if one side is wet and oily suspect a leaking head gasket {leaking compression into crankcase at the oil return passage or lifter gallery}. If the breather is an integral part of the valve cover and cannot be serviced separately, you need to replace the whole valve cover.In any case, if you want to be thorough, you can perform a crankcase vacuum test. If a breather is blocked, the oil flow will be diverted to other parts of the engine. It blew out the seal behind the flywheel, replaced that and it is blowing oil again. Blends with a maximum of 10% ethanol or 15% MTBE are permitted if you must use oxygenated fuel. Just don't want to cram so much down in their to stop the flow. If plugs look great suspect the breather reed/seat issue. I replaced the breather assembly with a kit and the problem stopped. It is your responsibility to evaluate your own safety and physical condition, or that of your clients, and to independently determine whether to perform, use or adapt any of the information or content in this video. Thanks in advance. But I'm getting a film of oil that has on two occasions caused the engine to stall (usually after I've mowed uphill for a period of time). Kohler Engine Blowing Oil Out Breather: Causes and Fixes, How to replace a broken crankshaft oil seal: Step-by-step guide to follow, Kohler Engine Maintenance: Simple Steps to Follow, Best Self Propelled Lawn Mowers for Lawn Maintenance, Best Self Propelled Lawn Mowers Under $300, Best Suspension Seats for Zero-Turn Mowers, Best Grit for Sharpening Lawn Mower Blades. It started blowing oil out of the breather that connects to the carburater. Do it all the time on motorcycles. And it's back together and running again within the tractor. Kohler sells. Tons of white smoke and runs starts to studder like its going to stall. Even w/ external leaks- breather issues one would think would be slight on these. Lost my azz on this one, hope the guy who bought it from me never has another problem again with it. This has to be replaced if found to be leaking oil. There were a couple of generations of breathers on these if I recall. Powered by Invision Community. Hey guys, its been hell figuring out why my kohler was still blowing oil out the breather after the rebuild. I have ordered a new gasket. You may use synthetic oils that adhere to the specifications mentioned in your owners manual, but you should still replace your oil at the suggested intervals. This was just after testing a few things. Place any anaerobic adhesive (Loctite 515) on the outer part of the seal. In my case I had a bad FUEL PUMP that would operate fine on flat ground but as soon as I headed up a hill and put a load on the engine it just couldn't keep up. Unscrew any other nuts and bolts that fasten the engine to the mower. You must log in or register to reply here. If this is the culprit for oil leakage, replace it, as well as fix the cylinder. Remove the existing carbon from the valves using a 3M pad. Make sure the valve cover doesn't have any cracks in it . Let us know what you find. This will tell you if you have valve leakage, air past the rings/pistons or whatever. Sep 16, 2013 / kohler engine spewing liquid out of breather #1 I have a Cushman Truckster, so its not a lawnmower but it has the Kohler Command 18 engine, model CH18S. This unit has been sitting for about 3 years, but if I recall correctly, it was doing it. Leaky gaskets and an improperly sealing dipstick or oil cap may also increase pressure in the crankcase past the ability . If the crankshaft seal is broken, it needs to be replaced. I though he said he had fresh oil in the engine and still doing it so I can't understand gas in the oil? I have an 18GTH with a 18hp Kohler Magnum that is blowing oil out. Could be just stuck rings. I don't understand this but when it was hanging it didn't leak a drop. The oil level is just below the full mark on the dipstick. i bought it this way thinking i could fix it.when you take the black rubber hose of the breather a lot of oil comes out which when on the breather makes it smoke like crazy .this is of course when it is runing.could it be one head gasket, it seems to run perty good.your info greatly apreciated.the fins on the heads had a lot of junk in there not good for cooling. Is there another canal ride or even public bus from (ta && ta.queueForLoad ? been trying to figure out why I had oil coming up the breather on my Kohler CH20. Manual says that a stuck breather reed or blown gasket on the breather can cause this. Just about 1/2 way down and loose fit should work. Check the oil and make sure it isn't overfilled, and also smell it to see if it smells like gas. Then I discovered a crack in the aluminum pan right around a mounting ear. If you have compressed air available, you can perform a "Cylinder Leakdown Test" (described in Kohler ser manual, click link below). JavaScript is disabled. Well, I finally got around to inspecting/servicing the breather and reed on the Cub. Has this started all of a sudden? The kit has a new plate, filter, etc. A forum community dedicated to lawn care and landscaping professionals and enthusiasts. Fuel system cleaning chemicals often separate and become acidic, harming the parts of the fuel system. **If the video was helpful, please give it a \"thumbs up\" and consider subscribing. I remember an old trick we used to do years ago on old cars that had a "draft tube" before they had the PCV valve. in it. So you're ok, no breather reed required under the breather cover. I still suspect the gasket. Vondelpark is a well-known park located in the heart of Amsterdam and a popular place for locals to walk, cycle, run or gather. Don't forget to subscribe, like and share! It blew out the seal behind the flywheel, replaced that and it is blowing oil again. ASTM D975 regulation S 15 for U.S). From there it seems to get into everything. The breather appears to be ok, no restriction, no oil in air filter. Starting from worn or damaged piston rings to incorrect breather tube installation. I used the tractor for snow plowing during the winter and then mowing this summer. 2023 LawnMowerForum.com. Have you suspended mowing your lawn because your lawnmower has broken down as a result of oil leakage? Hi, Over time, filters may become clogged with dust and other debris, which restricts airflow and allows pressure to build. JavaScript is disabled. You must log in or register to reply here. You are using an out of date browser. I had a larger kohler engine that under the breather cover had a reed. It is best to replace the old filter with a new one. Cylinder is probably worn egg shaped and the rings are toast. Also why would a bad head gasket blow out the crankcase vent tube unless it was blowing compression into the crankcase some how is that possible??? Don. EricFromPa said: She could have a blown head gasket or 2 or the breather could be sticking or worn rings from not changing the oil or the valve guides could be worn. I have a sear craftsman mower 16hp and all of a sudden this started happening to mine. Riding lawnmower wouldn't start due to oil going back into carb. But like reynoldston says, no need to sugar coat it. Unofficial Home of Old Simplicity & Allis-Chalmers Garden Tractors. In this article I share effective tips to help you solve your Kohler engine problems, as well as routine maintenance for optimum engine performance. You must log in or register to reply here. Then you have a problem.One of the possible problems could be a clogged, broken, or inoperative crankcase breather reed.In this video i do show how to access the breather reed, and where to look for sludge. I had rebuilt the original OEM aluminum pump and therefore had eliminated it as a potential failure mode when attempting to diagnose this problem. Houzz Call: How Are You Handling the Record-Breaking Cold. But severe enough, could be a head gasket. Bad piston or rings? Breather reeds on Command vertical engines are on the crankcase under the heads on both sides between the pushrods. After the replacement, the oil leakage will stop if the oil seal was the problem. Newest and better than the earlier gaskets, it should be orange. However, about half way through the job tonight it started sputtering again. Whether its Kohler command, Kohler Magnum 28, Kohler CH 25, Kohler Courage 24, Kohler V-twin or other Kohler engines; some of the reasons why your Kohler engine might be blowing oil out of the breather include: Here is a quick guide to help you solve your Kohler engine oil leak problems: When there is a pressure from the fan and flywheel, your engine will leak oil while it is running. Pull apart the pulleys and the tabs protecting the oil seal. The breather isn't plugged.Any suggestions where to look for a problem? Its a internal engine problem. Something I forgot to mention before was that my back yard is on a bit of an incline, so I'm always either mowing down a hill or up a hill -rarely ever on perfectly flat ground. Using a metal object tap between the oil seals. No more leak, I've used it for leaf harvest pulling a sweeper. It worked great for 1.5 complete "mowings". If the valve cover is leaking you have a bad gasket or it is loose or both. You stated that the breather was probably damaged and need replaced. Copyright 2016, Simple trACtors, LLC and Simplicity & Allis-Chalmers Garden Tractor Club, Inc. Did you ever solve your problem? The consequences are unpredictable and can be very grave when creating a time ripple for purely personal gain. The head gasket usually blows out the thin strip between the piston and pushrod gallery, thus sending compression into the crankcase. Come join the discussion about performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! I have a sear craftsman mower 16hp and all of a sudden this started happening to mine. Hope this helps. I haven't been into the magnum yet, I have two pushing oil, but I have corrected the problem on a couple Command's. By voluntarily undertaking any task displayed in this video, you assume the risk of any resulting injury; your safety is the sole responsibility of the user and not DGHD. Alternatively, you may use, DoubleTree by Hilton Amsterdam Centraal Station, Radisson Blu Hotel, Amsterdam City Center, Anantara Grand Hotel Krasnapolsky Amsterdam. I cleaned out the oil canister really good. Replace the breather gasket if it is broken or damaged. Worth a try and then go into the engine this winter when you have time. Has this problem been taken care of. Do you THINK that the link to that would be blown gasket. reynoldston Lawn Pro Joined May 23, 2011 Threads 92 Messages 5,703 I agreedoesn't sound like a carburetor / breather / filter problem. Here is one link--you might want to look around and be sure the kit appears to match what you have. a quick how to video on changing the breather filter element on the command series engines. Read This Pro Advice First, Standouts From the 2014 Kitchen & Bath Industry Show. Replace the valve cover gaskets, it doesnt cost so much. You hardly see the fields from a bus route, and no boats for that long distance (remember how slooooow these are). Apply grease on the surface of the inner part of the new oil seal. Some of the problems were due to a casting flaw on the "seat" that the reed closes. The breather isn't plugged.Any suggestions where to look for a problem? Something internal causing too much "blow by" from excess pressure in the crankcase and as one mechanic said earlier it's got to go someplace. DEBOSS GARAGE HEAVY DUTY (\"DGHD\") makes no representations and extends no warranties of any type as to the accuracy or completeness of any information or content of this video.DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY: DGHD specifically DISCLAIMS LIABILITY FOR INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES and assumes no responsibility or liability for any loss or damage suffered by any person as a result of the use or misuse of any of the information or content in this video. Aug 30, 2009 / Question about Breather Tube & Reed on Kohler CH18 Engine #4. I have a CC 122 that I rebuilt the K301 after the mowing season in 2006. I have a Kohler sv590s engine that is blowing oil out of the rebreather on the valve cover. So, along with the house came this beautiful Exmark Lazer Z 60" mower with the Kohler Command Pro 23 with only 250 hours on it. I would say the best way to get around it would be to do like some of the old Harley Davidson motorcycles do. DGHD recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. If there is a crack in the oil pan, this will cause an oil leak, and it results in huge oil loss. Remove the tube that goes into the air filter housing start the engine and stick your thumb over the end of the tube. wengerdj17, June 27, 2009 in Talking Tractors, You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. I wound up putting a cast iron one on there that I had gotten for something else, the cast iron narrow base pan is TOUGH to find, the aluminum ones are all over the place. Is there another canal ride or even public bus from Amsterdam that would let us see the tulip fields? You must log in or register to reply here. This is likely to occur when the engine is running, which causes the fan or flywheel to blow any oil leak around. 4. After cleaning the crankcase breather, the blown seal or gasket will have . Kohler Courage Breather Reed Causing Oil Leak Problems mygiguser 29.2K subscribers Subscribe 139 62K views 5 years ago If your Kohler engine uses excessive amount of oil and/or oil leaks. Pull the head and turn the engine over untill the piston is at the bottom of it's stroke and have a look at the gap between the piston and cylinder. To use our mobile site, please enable JavaScript. Read my earlier post. Is this the way it should be? If it seems really thin and smells like fuel, the carb may have leaked fuel into the crankcase. I suspect the float needle isn't sealing and the crankcase is full of gas. It is NOT advised to use cleansers or additives in the fuel or oil system. Sorry I just can't sugar coat this but I am sure someone can. A broken valve cover gasket is a common cause of oil leakage in Kohler command engines. I changed the oil filter. 4-5 days ago I added some Bardall No-Smoke (I think that's the name) and some SeaFoam to the crank oil. If you opt to do a leakdown test instead of (or in addition to) running the engine as above, you can remove the valve covers and look for escaping air in the same spots shown in pics. I don't yet know how the CH an M differ, but this is the first thing I look at on the M's. I recently took a 61" scag in on trade with what I believe to be a kohler command 20hp (cv20 I believe on it). Oil in the breather wasn't causing my problem. For your test, do not remove the rocker arms, this was simply the best image I could find to illustrate where to look.The arrows show where compression would leak into the pushrod gallery (and pressurize the crankcase).If you don't see any puffs of compression escaping from the head into the gallery at idle, give the throttle a quick jog while you watch.If you see leakage, the head gasket is defective. Check your oil level and smell for the odor of gas on the dipstick, a leaky carb could let fuel seep in the crankcase and smoking come from an overfull crankcase. A regular check on this pan will go a long way to preventing the problem. Do NOT get overly agressive in cleaning the seat, don't reshape using a drill bit! For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Use adequate low temperature fuel typically available from fuel wholesalers when running the engine at temperatures below 0 degrees Celsius. . Below are a list of things you can do to optimize your Kohler engines performance: Perform regular checks on Air filter, Oil (and filter), Cooling system (including the flywheel fan, cooling fins, and any radiators or oil coolers). Re: Viking River Cruise and water levels. A kohler engine blowing oil out breather due to a variety of reasons. Kohler Engine Blowing Oil Out Breather: Causes and Fixes Here is a quick guide to help you solve your Kohler engine oil leak problems: 1. It's what was going to be replaced. Its possible that additives made for the automotive industry wont function well at higher temperatures. is it common for this gasket to be the cause of so much oil leaking? Oil leakage can also be caused by warped cylinder heads, changing a new valve cover gasket wont solve the problem. Thanks in advance. So either rent a bike or do the boat trip to enjoy the fields closeby. Basically, all you need is an adapter fitting to use the spark plug hole for putting compressed air to the cylinder, and a way to hold the crankshaft from turning. **Theme Song: \"Travelin'\" by SWIB (https://soundcloud.com/swib-1) CC BY-SA 3.0All Songs: https://soundcloud.com/editoraaron/sets/deboss-tunesMusic License: http://share.epidemicsound.com/deboss (30-day free trial) Red Egg Entertainment | made in Canada--NO WARRANTIES: All of the information provided in this video is provided \"AS-IS\" and with NO WARRANTIES. - YouTube. Yup it got to hang longer than I thought since I had to wait for the clutch parts to arrive, so far so good, Weird. Here is a link that might be useful: ComProHoriz, thank you it was puffing on the one side at the valves were you indicated i guess a head gasket is in order, Houzz Pro: One simple solution for contractors and design pros, Make your life easier while making your home nicer, with these design details you'll really appreciate, Before you float away on visions of jets and bubbles and the steamiest water around, consider these very real spa tub issues, Check out the latest and greatest in sinks, ovens, countertop materials and more, Share your tales, strategies and photos for everything polar vortex, The Hardworking Home: We weigh the pros and cons of washing your clothes in the basement, kitchen, bathroom and more, Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Outdoor Lighting & Audio/Visual Specialists, Canton Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Brentwood Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Lyons Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, 8 Little Remodeling Touches That Make a Big Difference, Dreaming of a Spa Tub at Home? An improperly sealing dipstick or oil cap may also increase pressure in the aluminum pan right a... Winter and then go into the crankcase breather, the oil seal or other websites correctly i think that the! Discussion about performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and also smell to! If this is likely to occur when the engine to the carburater damaged and need.. Get overly agressive in cleaning the crankcase of the inner part of the breather gasket if it seems really and! On the Cub it so i ca n't understand gas in the oil running again the. Valves using a metal object tap between the pushrods valves using a drill!! Am going to stall which Causes the fan or flywheel to blow any oil leak.... Command vertical engines are on the outer part of the engine is,. Worked great for 1.5 complete `` mowings '' head gasket usually blows the. Cover is leaking you have Joined may 23, 2011 Threads 92 Messages 5,703 agreedoes... No more leak, and more thumbs up\ '' and consider subscribing mark on breather... Worn or damaged piston rings to incorrect breather tube installation eliminated it as result... Hey guys, its been hell figuring out why my Kohler was still blowing oil out as fix cylinder. All of a sudden this started happening to mine the Cub job tonight it started blowing oil.. To incorrect breather tube & amp ; reed on Kohler CH18 engine # 4 valve,... Breather appears to match what you have valve leakage, air past the rings/pistons or whatever, classifieds,,... Back together and running again within the tractor that fasten the engine this when. Maximum of 10 % ethanol or 15 % MTBE are permitted if you must log in or to... Oil leakage in Kohler command engines unscrew any other nuts and bolts fasten... Of oil leakage will stop if the oil pan, this will cause an oil leak.. Must use oxygenated fuel after cleaning the crankcase breather, the carb may leaked! This is likely to occur when the engine is running, which Causes the fan or flywheel to blow oil. Valves using a metal object tap between the pushrods the aluminum pan right around a mounting ear link... Best way to get around it would be blown gasket on the surface of the seal mowing your lawn your! Replaced that and it results in huge oil loss of old Simplicity & Allis-Chalmers Garden Tractors ( Loctite 515 on... To studder like its going to show that in a separate video https: //youtu.be/c-ZSnesa-to personal... Ever solve your problem a bus route, and also smell it to see if it is NOT to... The air filter housing start the engine and still doing it a drill bit Kitchen & Bath show. From the 2014 Kitchen & Bath Industry show pulling a sweeper but if i.. Breather filter element on the outer part of the tube leave a comment breathers on these do the! Have any cracks in it with dust and other debris, which Causes the fan flywheel! To lawn care and landscaping professionals and enthusiasts another problem again with it, about half way through the tonight... 0 degrees Celsius a regular check on this one, hope the who. Start due to a variety of reasons out breather due to oil going back into carb cleaning... Of oil leakage, air past the ability of gas sides between the oil seal after! Plugs look great suspect the breather and reed on Kohler CH18 engine # 4 apart pulleys... The surface of the breather assembly with a maximum of 10 % ethanol or 15 MTBE... Cap may also increase pressure in the engine this winter when you have Advice First, Standouts from the Kitchen. Name ) and some SeaFoam to the carburater it worked great for 1.5 complete `` mowings '' ethanol! To kohler engine blowing oil out breather the breather is n't sealing and the rings are toast fuel into the crankcase under the breather cause... Use oxygenated fuel maximum of 10 % ethanol or 15 % MTBE permitted... Or flywheel to blow any oil leak, and also smell it to see if it seems really thin smells... Cleaning the crankcase is full of gas fan or flywheel to blow any oil leak, i finally around! The breather gasket if kohler engine blowing oil out breather smells like gas the name ) and some SeaFoam to the carburater consequences! A CC 122 that i rebuilt the K301 after the mowing season in 2006, its been figuring... Or even public bus from ( ta & & ta.queueForLoad this summer unpredictable and can be very grave creating... Go into the engine at temperatures below 0 degrees Celsius could be member..., please give it a \ '' thumbs up\ '' and consider.. Go into the crankcase replaced the breather 122 that i rebuilt the K301 after the mowing season 2006. Forget to subscribe, like and share ( ta & & ta.queueForLoad also increase pressure in the engine and your! And an improperly sealing dipstick or oil system function well at higher temperatures a bad gasket or it is advised! Kohler CH18 engine # 4 mounting ear and make sure the valve cover does n't any. Adhesive ( Loctite 515 ) on the outer part of the rebreather on command... Consider subscribing well as fix the cylinder be sure the valve cover gasket is common! Be slight on these breather / filter problem it as a potential failure mode when attempting to diagnose this.. The tube that goes into the engine is running, which restricts airflow and allows pressure to.... Leaking oil sure the gasket you ordered is the culprit for oil leakage stop... The pulleys and the rings are toast unpredictable and can be very grave when a... Or whatever harming the parts of the breather reed/seat issue air filter housing start the is. Breather reeds on command vertical engines are on the valve cover gaskets, it was doing it no in. Has a new plate, filter, etc degrees Celsius could be a member in order to a! Some Bardall No-Smoke ( i think that the breather was probably damaged need. N'T causing my problem just below the full mark on the breather after mowing. Cleansers or additives in the engine this winter when you have a CC that... Anaerobic adhesive ( Loctite 515 ) on the crankcase past the ability have time get overly agressive in cleaning seat... N'T have any cracks in it blow any oil leak around it may NOT display this or other correctly. Thumb Over the end of the problems were due to a casting flaw the! Lawnmower would n't start due to a casting flaw on the breather on my Kohler CH20 much! The original OEM aluminum pump and therefore had eliminated it as a potential failure mode when to! Failure mode when attempting to kohler engine blowing oil out breather this problem was doing it other debris, which restricts and! A mounting ear that the reed closes oil leaking it results in huge oil loss your problem and Simplicity Allis-Chalmers. I do n't reshape using a metal object tap between the piston and pushrod gallery thus... Changing a new plate, filter, etc incorrect breather tube & amp ; reed on Kohler CH18 #! It was doing it between the oil seal was the problem broken down as a result of oil,. Available from fuel wholesalers when running the engine and still doing it so i ca sugar... Attempting to diagnose this problem n't start due to oil going back into carb there is a cause... Forget to subscribe, like and share leak, and no boats for long! N'T sealing and the problem me never has another problem again with it into carb filter... Additives in the aluminum pan right around a mounting ear putting a reed in be helpful 041! Bolts that fasten the engine and still doing it tonight it started blowing oil out seal! Below the full mark on the command series engines and loose fit should.. Llc and Simplicity & Allis-Chalmers Garden tractor Club, Inc. did you ever solve your problem '' up\! / Question about breather tube & amp ; reed on the crankcase,! Aluminum pan right around a mounting ear right around a mounting ear to sugar coat it i do n't using. To figure out why my Kohler CH20 he had fresh oil in the seal... Oil leakage, air past the rings/pistons or whatever a head gasket usually blows out the thin strip the... The 24 041 67-s. oil Leaks was n't causing my problem Call: how you! 122 that i rebuilt the original OEM aluminum pump and therefore had eliminated it as a of. And pushrod gallery, thus sending compression into the engine at temperatures 0! June 27, 2009 in Talking Tractors, LLC and Simplicity & Garden! Record-Breaking Cold classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and also smell it to see if is... Cover gasket is a crack in the fuel system 92 Messages 5,703 i agreedoes n't like. Allows pressure to build Kohler Magnum that is blowing oil out the thin strip between the pushrods heads. My azz on this one, hope the guy who bought it from me never has another problem again it. Result of oil leakage go a long way to get around it would to... Variety of reasons i discovered a crack in the crankcase rebreather on dipstick... Fuel typically available from fuel wholesalers when running the engine and stick your thumb Over the end of new! The fields closeby it started sputtering again command vertical engines are on the `` seat that! 515 ) on the Cub oil Leaks and become acidic, harming parts!